So you actually try to get feedback from your customers as much as possible?
Yes, that's right.

What business was your father in?
He's retired now. Before that he was a bus conductor. He has retired 20 years ago.

Are you married?
No.

Has your business always located here?
Yes, it has always been in Far East though I have shifted once. I used to be on the 3rd level, right inside for 1 and half years before I found a better location on the 4th level which is the present location.

Why did you choose this location?
It is because I have been hanging out in this building since I was 16 or 14. I love this place. This is one special building where they have many individual smalls shops unlike Wisma or Paragon where they have major departmental stores and more up market shops. I also think that this is the place where teenagers want to hang out.

Did you have to get a license to do business here?
Yes, just go ROC for a small sum of money, just register your name and then you can be your own boss.

Is there any other procedures?
No, you register your company and that's it.

Why did you name your shop "TOSS"?
Very interesting. Now I'm selling clothes but I actually started out selling sliver, like "Bits and Pieces". So my niece actually came out with this name for me, so TOSS stands for "The Original Silver Shop".

So why did you switch your business from selling silver to clothes?
Selling silver is still making money but when I started out with no experience and not much capital so I have much stock. In a way we are losing out, we don't much stock, don't have high turnover and we don't much money to buy more stock. So I lost money and I thought selling silver is not good for me so I decided to change to selling clothes.

When you first started out, what was your concept you had in mind?
No concept for the clothes. Like I said for my 1st business I lost money and I borrowed money from my sister and I got a partner then, we lost money so for 1 and half years I had zero cents with me. That's when I found this current unit and some customers came to me, regulars, they asked, why you didn't sell clothes? Because we will buy clothes on every occasion when we have money, when we want to celebrate, etc. But we don't buy silver as much, we will buy more clothes than silver. So I decide to borrow more money, got a bank loan. So there is no concept, I just sell whatever I think can sell and what my friends think are "in". Then I went over to London and bought street wear. I started selling the street wear. My main aim was to pay off my debts and get back capital so anything that will sell, I would sell.

So initially your clothes came from London, how about later on?
I got a few repeat orders but after that I realise it's getting expensive you have convert the cost from pounds. So I started bringing in clothes from Thailand and I went to Arab Street and found some shops there. One of my friends one shop there and told me the things from here can sell, why don't you buy from here and sell in Far East because my people don't go Arab Street, people like to hang out in Far East, Wisma, etc. So I bought the stock from them and I even bought everything they had because it was so popular. It was actually old stock. I kept taking the stock from them for a year or so, then the lady boss there told me that her stock is clearing soon, you better find another supplier. That's when I went over to Bali and at the same time, I was already selling surfwear, Quirksilver, Mambo clothes. I sell anything that is "in". I went over Australia to grab the wallets and bags to sell over here. Then I went over to Bali to get T-shirts which are sold much cheaper there. The stock lasted me for about half a year. At that time, Mambo was really "in" and Quirksilver also, so my new stock was finishing. Then I came across this shop that was selling very nice batik stuff in Bali so I asked them for wholesale. The 1st time they said no so I dropped the idea. Then I went to Bali every month and I approached the shop again. This time they offered 15 % discount but I tried to ask for more. So after more negotiation, they decided to give me 30% off so I brought the stock over and it was quite popular. After I worked with them for a few months, I asked them, "Can I give you my designs and you produce the clothes for me?" They agreed. That's how I started designing my own clothes. Now I rent my own place in Bali. I have my workers to produce the clothes. It's cheaper and I can do whatever I want.

So most of the clothes that TOSS sells are they your own designs or do you still bring in clothes from other places?
We produce our own clothes. Some of them are my designs, some are designed by my friends, some I copy the design from the designs that I find nice with slight variation.

How long do you think you will stay here?
As long as I can. My ultimate aim would be to buy an unit here.

Do you have any partners?
My sister. She's a sleeping partner. She lent the money to start my business and was my guarantor for my bank loan.

Tell me some stories that give me an idea of the hardships in starting a business from scratch.
Borrow money and borrow money. The hardship is always the first 2 to 3 years. I started with only $2,500 of my own money and the rest I borrowed from my sister and I got a partner then. Before I started, I worked in some silver shop and I think that they are making a lot of money. So I told my friend this business is worth venturing into and we thought, why not. I know that they get their stock from Italy but mostly Thailand. And by then, I have a lot of regulars because I talk to the customers. The rest of colleagues don't talk to the customers. So before I started my business, I told them I'm opening a shop one level up so I asked for their support. When we first started, we came out with $20,000 each and only $2,500 is from me, the rest I borrowed from my sister. So we had $40,000 but after paying our rent for 3months upfront , we don't have much left. We didn't do much renovation. We made do with whatever the old tenant left. We went over Bangkok and buy all the jewels we could find and that's how we started. Though we had regulars who come down and support us but we had limited stock. Our turnover is very low just enough to pay rent, I get a very little pay and the rest goes to travelling overseas to buy stock. The first few months were still not so bad but because we had too little stock, things got worse. It reached a stage when we couldn't pay our rent. We could only pay rent once every 2 months. We tried to think of new ways to survive. We went to all the bazaars we could go to, NUS, NTU and all the polys. Most of them we made money which is enough to cover the rental and here and there. I also went for the bazaar for the Chinese New Year River Hongbao event at Marina Square. That's when I made quite a bit but still not enough to recover our capital. Then we thought maybe our location was not good and that's when we found the present location which I think is better. No doubt the rent is $300 to $500 more but I still think it's better. So we decided to give it another shot but we had no money. We had to source for another $10,000. I borrowed from my sister again. Then in '95, '96, the printed T-shirt with carebears, ultraman were very "in". So I decided to make this, like I said earlier, I will sell anything just to recoup my money. I thought that we should stop selling silver though we still have some stock left. We didn't have much left though. There was this point when we had so little stock that I felt embarrassed to open the shop when people came in, there's nothing much to see. I found this supplier and bought the machine and started T-shirt printing. After one month, my partner who was my secondary school friend and very close friend but because of the business we argue quite a bit, I decided to break off the partnership, either he buys my share or vice versa. I thought it's better to break this partnership than our friendship. He agreed and because I was the one running the show and he said he knows nothing about the trade, so I spoke to my sister and asked her if she is willing to buy over his share. She agreed. I calculated and what we are left with it only $20,000 or $30,000 and divided by two. My partner made a lost but he's alright with it and my sister bought over his share and that's how my sister came into the picture. But still we didn't have enough money to buy more stock. Then I went to my sister again and I told her, "Why don't you lend me another 30 grand and touchwood if I fail again, I will go and find a job and pay you back the money in monthly instalment. Because I think it's such a pity to wind up the business. She said that she cannot lend me the money but she can be a guarantor for me for a bank loan. So I agreed. Then I flew to London without much knowledge and experience, with only fashion magazines and guidebooks. I went to many warehouses and called up many suppliers when I was in Singapore. I travelled all around, gathering all my stocks. That's how I started my fashion wear and it worked. I think it's because during then there weren't anyone selling London clothes and my clothes were not really street wear and more of club wear. Again not many people selling club wear so I can sell at a high price so I sell at a t-shirt for $59 and people buy because it's unique and they know that it's from London. Then later on, my friend introduce me to the shop in Arab Street. So I sold a variety of clothes to pay off my debts and I promised my sister to work hard. To me, concept is not an issue, it's your product. You can have a very good concept and a nice shop but if it doesn't sell it's useless. I have never spent more $3,000 on renovation. When I opened my shop in Heerens one year ago, I did my own renovations, which cost $2,500. I don't believe in spending money on this because you will never get back your money. For example if you spend $50,000 on renovations, if a few years later you close your shop, you would have wasted $50,000.

Tell me some stories of your best day in business.
I would think that my best days are when I was selling the t-shirts from London, the club wear. But the cost was getting too high and other people started bringing the same things and they were cutting down the prices so I didn't think it was worth it.

What about your worst day?
My worst day was a sale $9 a day. It was my first day and throughout there were some days that business was bad. The problem with this location is that when it rains it is rather inconvenient to come to this building. You will have walk in the rain to get here. If you take a MRT, you would rather stay in Takashimaya. During the recent Asian financial crisis and now the past 2 years, business hasn't been good.

Have you ever felt like giving up?
Never. It's quite sad to say this but if I don't do TOSS, I don't know what else I can do. During the 1st 2 years, I keep telling myself that I have to pay back my sister. I put in so much effort, for the 1st 4 years, from morning to night, I worked and even when I'm sick I come to work because I cannot afford to hire anyone. So I never never want to give up. I will do anything to sustain my business.

Who are your competitors?
Every shop whose target consumers are 16-35 years old is my competitors. They don't have to sell clothes, whether they sell shoes or toys, as long as they have the same target consumers, they are my competitors. For example, if you have $50 to spend to buy a present for your friend, so if I'm the only shop, if you don't my dress, you buy my top, if you don't buy my top, and you buy my pants. Ultimately, I will still earn your $50. If there is another shop, they need not be selling clothes, they can be selling sandals. Now you have a choice, you can buy a pair of sandals from her instead. So that shop is my competitor.

So now that Far East's basement has opened up so many new shops, has it affected your sales in any way?
They just opened last month and it's during the festive season so I cannot really tell now and anyway it's too early to tell. People are attracted to it now because it's something new. After a year or so, the hype will die down. For example, Marina Square used to be so popular, now nobody goes there anymore.

Have you ever thought of going in business with them to make a bigger business?
Not really but I want to expand my business. That's why I opened another shop in Heeren last year. But I don't want to have too many shops too early because I think if you are not stable, your foundation is not good, your second shop may pull down your main one. So I wanted to make sure my business to be really stable before I opened another one. If the next one doesn't do well, at least the main one is stable. That's why I waited so long before opening another branch and I went around looking for another location. I was quite interested in Annex and quite like the concept there. Hopefully I can open one or two more shops.

How about expanding regional?
Yes I thought of that but I want my business here to be more stable first. My plan is have 3 or maximum 4 shops in Singapore. Now I actually am looking at opening a shop in KL which I'm going in March to take a look. I will probably leave my name and contacts in the waiting list for a shop space.

Did you start as a businessman as a child selling things to your friends and family?
Doing business to me is for survival and money. I come from a very big and poor family. I started working at the age of 10. I know it sounds like the movies but it's true. My dad is only a bus conductor and my mum is a housewife. How much can a bus conductor bring in to feed so many mouths? I started out selling fishballs, newspaper, etc. I will work during every school holiday and eventually I joined the navy. I learn a lot from the navy but it was only a 7 years contract. I went in when I was 18 and came out when I was 25. Then I didn't think of starting of my business, I did any job that I can get, sell ice, swenson's supervisor, construction worker, etc, until I worked at the silver shop that I told you earlier on and that changed my life.

So was it after working at the silver shop that you decided you don't want to work for people anymore and you want to strike it out on your own?
No, not really. What I thought was that this shop is making so much money why can't I do it on my own too.

When you started, was your family supportive?
Though my family is close but whatever every one of us is trying to survive and they didn't really know of my plans at that point of time. I started when I was 25 and I'm the youngest in my family so I didn't feel that I need to answer to anybody or tell them my plans.

How about your sister? She seemed extremely supportive of you.
In a way because I'm the youngest so she thinks that I should give it a shot. If not for her help, I would not be here, I might be just a salesman.

Do the recent events, such as the economics crisis, have a drastic effect on your business?
I won't say drastic but my business is affected. Initially I thought that my business will be badly affected by the crisis but when I bring in certain items they still sell every well. Then it made me realise that it's the situation, it's what you sell. Even if there is an economic crisis, you bring in something nice, people will still buy.

So you feel that even in an economic crisis, there is still money to be made?
Yes, you can still make a lot of money even during the crisis. It's what you sell then.

How about your friends? Are they very encouraging about you setting up your own business?
Yes, like the girl who brought me to the shop in Arab Street, they give me ideas.

Are your friends in business too?
Most of them are my regulars. They hang out at my shops a lot. They give me new ideas and bring their friends down to buy clothes.

What happens if you get sick? Who will take care of your business?
The shop at Heerens is actually taken care by my nephew. I bring him to the factory at Bali and I try to teach him everything. I'm letting him to learn bit by bit. I would want to train someone to be able to take over even though I'm not sick now so that I can take a holiday without having to worry about the running about business.

How's the payment method like for your stocks?
I produced my clothes in Bali. Now our suppliers are from Japan and Europe so I buy from rolls and bales of cloths.

What qualities that you have do you think differentiates you from someone who works for others?
Hard work and discipline. If you need to work, you work. Like nowadays I'm quite relaxed but I make sure I am always early to open the shop and neither will I close the shop early, never before 9pm.

So to keep your business going for so long, I'm sure you have made some sacrifices over the years. What are they?
Not much sacrifice for my family because my family is big and everyone is busy with their work too. But 1 of my ex-girlfriends left me because I have no time for them.

In your opinion, why does someone decide to be on their own rather than join an existing company?
Wanting to be a towkay. Some people just want to tell people that they own a business. But that is not good. You must have the strong desire to make money. To start a business is simple but to sustain and to make money is the difficult part.

When was the moment you realized that the business would work and support you?
Maybe somewhere in the third or fourth year when I managed to pay off all my debts and my bank loans. But of course now there are still times when business is bad, there are times, like exams period, when it's so quiet and you cannot even bring in enough to cover the rent then you will think whether you will work.

So is there any way counter this situation of off-peak season?
No. there is no way. During exam period, even if you give freebies, they will still stay at home. There is always a limit to an indoor and outdoor sales. For outdoor sales, you can tell yourself you want to work harder and hit targets, you can extend your working hours. But for indoor sales, you cannot. You can close at 12 midnight but you will have no customers. So there is this limitation.

Tell me about your first few customers.
There is this girl whom I didn't manage to get her name. Initially for my London club wear clothes, I only sell guys stuff and that's because I'm a guy. She's a regular who used to buy silvers but when I stopped selling silver, she still comes by to says hi. Then she suggested that I should selling female clothes. She told me this, "When guys have money, they go drinking, when girls have money, they go shopping." And because of what she told me I change the stuff that I sell to girls' apparel. Then I realise girls' stuff really sell, when girls are happy, they shop, when they are sad that shop, when they have money, they shop, when they have no money, they will window-shop and will come back when they have money. It's amazing.

What would you advise young people to do today in starting a business?
When you are going to start a business, make sure you really think through and know the business well. Open a shop because you want to make money, because you really want it to work and because you want to have a second and a third one. You must love your job. Even in bad times, don't give up.

Who is your role model or mentor?
The people running 77th street. I know them personally and they opened a few years before I did and I really see them grow from a small shop to what they are today. Now if you open a shop beside 77th street, sell exactly the same things at half price, people will also not buy from you. It's their branding and they have opened their shop at the right timing. I respect them because they started from nothing also. I really hope to be like them but even if I'm half like them, I'm happy. I'm working towards that goal. It's important to look forward if not you will be stagnant. I may only move bit by bit and a few years to accomplish what I want but I will work hard for it.

What are your retirement plans?
I want to retire at 45. I save quite a bit. I don't even have a car because I feel that having a care is really a waste of money. I would rather take public transport. When I come to work, I would park my car in the carpark the whole day and then when I drive home, it will be there the whole day. Moreover I travel every month. I felt that it's a waste of money. I want to save my money to invest in my shops.

Other than TOSS, do you have any other investments?
No, I have confidence in my shops.

As we try and pick the final 38 entrepreneurs from all the people we interview what qualities would you think a person should have to inspire others?
You must believe in what you are doing. They must work hard too. There's no shortcut to it, especially for retail. For me, other than my daily work, I will try to look more opportunities, do market survey, look for suppliers. I always ask myself what the market wants and keep changing to keep up with fashion.

Do you think of TOSS as a trend-setter or trend-follower?
Definitely not a trend-follower nor a trend-setter. I produce things that I think the market will like and my regulars will like. If I can get a small market to like my clothes, I'm happy because we are small and there are like 18,000 retail shops in Singapore. Of course you will try to get in more business but I don't want to follow trends. That's why I started producing our own stuff.

So what do you think differentiate your shop from the rest?
The unique designs.

Do you go for competitive pricing?
No, I will not go into a price war. Only the consumers will gain from this. I have my bills to pay so it will not sustain. Plus our materials are now from Japan and Europe so it cost more and our prices cannot compare to shops in Bali because rent here is simply too expensive.

If you are chosen as one of the 39 winners will you come to the ceremony to be honored?
Yes, why not.

Will you be comfortable with the press and TV asking you many of the same questions if you are a winner?
I don't know. I cannot tell you something that I haven't been through.

Do you have any objection to this interview being posted on the Community Web Site or published in the newspaper prior to being chosen?
No problem.

If part of the Spirit of Enterprise is a scholarship given in your name directed to any school you would like to give it to: any idea now where that would be? You don't have to decide now, but if some day you are asked - any ideas? Primary school, secondary, college, technical or university?
Maybe you can choose 2 or 3 candidates. Discuss with them what they want to do. Do a market survey.

Who do you admire in business?
77th street. I really admire them. I only see myself as a small-time retailer and I call them a retailer but they have become really big. I really respect what they did.

You didn't manage to further your education because you had to come out to work to support your family. Do you think the years of practical experience helped or do you think it would have been better if you had more education?
I think that experience is more important than your papers. In class, the learning is passive. You just absorb from the lecturers. In work, you have much more to handle, your boss, your colleagues, your subordinates, etc. Sometimes you may have a simple task but the people you work with are difficult. I don't think that if you give a business graduate, $100,000 to start a business it will definitely work. I think if you give someone with 5 years experience the same thing, the chances of this guy succeeding is higher. No offence. The problem with graduates they tend to be less willing to go through hardship. I don't admire people that take over their family's business. That's why I really admire 77th street because they started from nothing. I'm proud to say I'm also started from nothing. I need not to be a millionaire to feel successful, as long as I reached my goals, I'm happy.

So have you achieved your goals?
I'm halfway there.

Is this where you envisioned yourself to be when you first started?
Not in the first year when I started when I was really struggling but maybe in the third year.

Student Interviewer's Personal Comment