Would you say that your business not only has an economic aspect but a social aspect as well?
People say that what is the success for a good business, or enterprise and many people automatically say that the reason they enter business is to make money [sic]. I don't follow that philosophy directly because money is never the end objective, money is the means by which you achieve something and what you want to achieve is a sense of happiness, contentment and achievement which are all inter-linked. For me the objective of business is to fulfill a dream and the satisfaction that one acquires from one's dreams would be to make the world a better place, doing something to improve it and to have a positive impact on other people. And to enjoy what you are doing. Live all your dreams and you will enjoy life. What I am doing is to make sure that it is possible for me to do what I enjoy doing, and partaking in business enterprises ensures that while we follow the stars so to speak, the body and soul is still kept together by the revenue streams we create from being involved in the things we enjoy.

So when you started out the business, did you start out 50% dream, 50% wanting to make money? What proportion did you start out?
I think dream was the most important part. After you have your dream then you find out how you can make your dream a reality. It cannot be the other way round. Of course, to make something work, you need drive, you need imagination, you need creativity and so forth. And it could be one's dream to have nothing but money, money, money, but I think when you go through the process, and you realize you have money around you, what do you do with it? Then you keep wondering why you're in this whole process, why you made so many sacrifices? I've seen a lot of people whose basic drive is money, but at the end of the day they have no time to enjoy the money. They always look at happiness being somewhere in the future. It is not here in the present, and I think that's pretty silly because you have only one life. It is critical that you treasure every moment of your life and acquire the richness of living in the present and not postpone that happiness to some later future.

What business was your father in?
My father was a sportsman. He actually represented Singapore and won the All-India Cup for the Malayan team as a badminton player. Unfortuantely, injuries forced him to withdraw from the game but he had tremendous passion for sports. He was an all round cricketer, played badminton at world standard and when he found that he could not pursue his dreams as a sportsman, he originally had been an inspector of police, he pursued it in business. He did it by setting up a company that dealt in sports goods, and he was one of the few people who brought in Chinese-made sports goods into Singapore. He first introduced it actually.

So he found satisfaction in that arena, but none of his children were ever given an opportunity to go into business because he refused to let anyone of us be involved in his business. He felt that the road for us was purely through books, and becoming professionals in our own right. He felt that our focus should never be on business because it was too risky and too demanding. So we were never allowed to participate in business. In fact business acquired a certain degree of notoriety in the sense that it became a bad word, a bad place to be, which is very strange because my dad was in it. I suppose when a parent experiences hardship, he doesn't want that hardship to be transferred to the child. My Dad probably saw elements of business that he wasn't too happy with.

But I think what he blessed us with was the sense of believing in yourself, in doing something. I think my education played a part in that also, because I did my studies in the UK. What amazed me while I was there was that 18-19 year olds were doing things that you would expect major organizations to do. For example I remember once when a fellow history student, a friend of mine, had just came back from Eritrea, which was at that time part of Northern Ethiopia. He had been impressed by the people and the tremendous hardship they were suffering, but also the strong streak of independence they had. When he came back, he went straight to the union, said that he wanted to set up an organization called Eritrean Action and he went about with help from the rest of us forming the group and within 3 months he raised up 10,000 pounds. Now that money went to raise a workshop and helped set up a school in a village in Eritriea. And it was one 19 year old person and I saw so many examples of that although I was in the university. People were just not involved in themselves and their studies; they were involved in what was going on in the rest of the world. Students were setting up things like boycotting South African products and so forth because they felt they needed to act. And the impression one got was that anything is possible if you really want it to happen. It doesn't matter what your educational background was, how old you are, what experience…you get it along the way, you just get down to doing it. It was a totally different approach to life that you do not have to be a digit and you can create your environment and you can do things you are concerned about. I think that was very important.

Would you say that your university education was an eye-opener in that it changed the way you looked at life?
To a significant extend, yes it was. It showed that the individual is as important as the state in making things happen. Not all things happen because of the state's involvement. This is something which is very insidious in Singapore, I mean it's not that the state says it alone can do everything but because it is so omnipresent, you are lulled into that perception of life, that mindset. And the belief that if you are not happy with what's going on, that you can do something about it and change it on your own, that's something that is not cultivated in Singapore. Everyone wants to go by the book because life is pretty good, by the book!

Where you are right now, how much of it can be attributed to your university education, or what other influences have shaped you into what you are today?
I think my parents were a significant aspect, the fact that they were part of a small community that prided itself. I come from the Ceylon Tamil community, amongst them there was a strong belief in work ethic and striving and achieving. That however tended to be in the arena of becoming a professional and becoming an educated person. So there is a strong basis for a competitive element, it was like the Jews in the states. There was a strong sense of wanting to achieve something. While that was a good foundation. I think the ability to look forward to challenges and being independent, that experience was to a large part born in the UK itself.

What I would to attribute to my parents was the willingness to always speak one's mind, to be not afraid. I would say, parents, community I grew in, school I went to, but one of the most important things that fired me as a person was this whole thing called Singapore. Now how did this whole thing come about? When we were growing up in the 60s, there was an experiment we were doing. A social contract had been set out, that this country was going to be very different. And as a child, you don't fully appreciate it. You take it in hook, line and sinker. This was in my primary school days, late 60s and early 70s. In my school days, we are talking about 69-79. The strong ethos of meritocracy, everyone having a place in Singapore and being able to do anything, everyone would get far if they work hard, it gave you the confidence that as long as you strive you could achieve things too. All these were a combination. You are the sum of all your experiences, and all these were important elements in achieving something. And I think they all played a part in constructing me as an individual. I would not say that any one factor was critical than the other, I would say they contributed to my overall development.

Let's talk about your family, I suppose your children are still growing up?
I don't have any kids because we made up our minds when we got married. We both wanted to do something very focused and we wanted to put a lot of our time into our careers, in terms of our dreams. In a way we both work with kids, because my wife is a teacher at ACS Primary. And I too through the heritage trails come in touch with kids. And I come from a pretty large family, lots of nephews and nieces, so we have enough kids around and we didn't think it was fair to try to bring in a child if we were not going to spend time with the child, so we made a conscious decision not to have children. But in that sense our world is still filled with children, because we either have to work with them or enjoy their company through our extended families.

Has your business always be located here?
Do you mean in Singapore or Chinatown?

Since you brought it up, why don't you bring us through both? Because from your answer, it seems, you have set up a business overseas.
In the sense that I was given opportunities to work in Britain when I graduated, but while Britain is a wonderful place and I had lots of friends there, Britain was never home and I think you need to be away from your country before you realize how important and integral it is to you. While this country has many problems it is still evolving as a nation and a state. It still has some way to go in the arena of recognizing human rights properly. It is developing in the right direction. But more importantly it is home; I cannot replicate it anywhere else. It is a place where I know I have a right to be in, and I can always claim ownership to and while the proprietal element is an aspect, the sense of belonging is very strong and that sense of belonging, one would lose it if one were to go somewhere else.

And those are the reasons why I came back, but when I came back, I came back like everyone else looking for a job that would give me satisfaction and I was fortunate enough to be offered a position as lecturer in military history and strategic studies in Mindef which I found extremely satisfying. Oddly enough, it was a wonderful place to grow as an individual in many ways. In a sense it prepared me in many ways, Mindef and the experience at SCSC (Singapore Command and Staff College) prepared me in terms of organizational skills, my exposure and development as an academic and how to use this in setting up my business because the business which I eventually set up was based on local history. The reason why we set up office here in Chinatown was because one of the first few consultancy projects we did was on Chinatown itself for the Singapore Tourism Board. The process of doing that research, we got to know so many people in Chinatown, the shop owners…everyone's got a story and as we did more and more historical research we got to know the stories behind each house. All the way down to the previous centuries. And as you walk the streets, the life of the people of Chinatown hits you all the time. You're aware of how significant each building is and their story; the story they tell and that's what drew us, eventually setting up office in Chinatown.

Whenever, you're in Chinatown, Little India or Kampong Glam, they tell the story of Singapore and when they tell the story of Singapore, they're telling our story, they're telling a story about us. So from a historian's point of view, you can't be in a much more richer place in terms of history.

How many years did you spend working at Mindef?
6 years.

Did you have to get a license to do business here?
Only all the basic requirements such as registering your company. And of course, if you go into tourism, you need to get a tourist agent's licence.

Singapore is a very easy place to set up a business, but setting up is one thing, having to compete and grow is another thing. It is a very competitive environment. What was fortunate for us was that when we started we were unique in the sense that people had never heard of history consultants before, and people never even, in their wildest mind could imagine that they could make a business out of history.

I remember when I applied to do my studies in Leeds, because I had been posted to the science faculty in NUS and I didn't want to continue doing science in Singapore. They refused to give me a transfer to the Arts faculty for history. I applied to do history in Britain. The one question I was asked was why on earth are you going all the way to Britain to do history. If you're going to go through all that expense, then you should be doing law, or medicine or something else, so-called professional degrees. And the one statement which a relative said remained stuck in my mind, was that you can't make money out of history, meaning that you can't make a living out of history. And when I suggested, eventually after 6 years of having fulfilled my contract in Mindef, I was asked to renew my contract, essentially for life, I told my family about starting my own consultancy. My wife was supportive, because she knew it was important to pursue things that you enjoy doing, and she knew me as a person who was more motivated by what I enjoy doing than anything else. So she was fully behind me, my family was fully behind me too. But you know, there was the fear that I was doing something foolish, my mom would come and say, you've got a very good job, good government job, secure, why are you giving all this up to do this?

So when I was going into this line of setting up SHC, the view was that how could something like this survive Singapore, in calculating where we are in history and sports, we didn't really get support of people because economic activities like trade, factories will take care of your rice-bowl. So in that sense we were unique, because no one thought that a history company could survive in Singapore; that there was even a need for historical consultancy services. We're now 8 years old and I think we've proved beyond a point that there is a need for services and that you can survive and do a dream if you are able to…it is possible to make a dream that comes true, particularly in an environment like Singapore. When we first started out, many people asked us what was a history consultant. Now we see tender documents that request for history consultancy to be part of the project. So in a sense, we have created a new word in the market, and a new need in the market, in a sense, you could say we created a new business.

So how does the government categorizes your business?
Where the government is concerned, we are still a company registered under the ROC. While there is an appreciation of that, I think the government has also realized that as Singapore evolves to a higher level of society, there is a need to support the arts, to support heritage and sports. Like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, once the stomach has been filled one starts looking at higher needs. Singapore has gone through that process so in a sense while we are officially a business, there's also recognition that there's a need to develop the heritage industry. What has pleased me is that over that past few months I've seen moves to create special tax and incentive programmes and so forth that will support companies like mine that focuses on history and heritage and that itself is a recognition that things are happening underground, and the awareness of it that it must be cultivated and given a chance to grow. On the one hand, we are a business like any other, on the other, agencies like NHB and all that have been pushing for new schemes to attract firms like mine and give them an opportunity to grow stronger.

Do you think, in a sense you have pre-empted PM Goh's call, in that what you have been doing has been epitomizing the Spirit of Enterprise?
You know I think the spirit of enterprise has always been present in Singapore. It is how strong you want it to grow. I think PM Goh's call is a desire for more people to get involved in creating private enterprise and help develop that sprit of enterprise. I think if anything, what we did in SHC was basically showing that you can make an enterprise of anything if you have a dream and I think in that sense we might have established a pathway in showing that you do not have to start an enterprise in the traditional area like setting up a factory or doing trade. You can set up an enterprise in things that seem different, unlikely to be even considered an enterprise. I had a friend who once called us social-preneurs, we were doing things with regards to society, we were entrepreneurs in developing society. I thought it was a compliment but we should be more modest in accepting such a compliment. I think there is more space for more people and companies to turn their dreams into a livelihood and that is how I would like us to be described as, that we are still able to push our dreams and keep body spirit and soul together in a place like Singapore.

Do you have any partners when you set up your business?
The company was set up as a private limited company. This whole idea started out when 5 of us sat down, and we thought we all had the benefit of a good education, and we were tired of the straight-jacketed way that people see life in Singapore. And we wanted to do something different, so all we did was to pull our resources together, created a private limited company and we just moved on from there. So it was a case of having the financial support of friends and the psychological support of family.

Are they involved in the running of the company?
They only put in the capital, but in due course we wanted to reward staff from the company who had shown a commitment to the firm. In fact some of the staff recently became shareholders, and it is a process we intend to continue to reward long time staff, giving them an opportunity to own a bit of the company because we feel that the exercise they undertook was not only in the arena of history but it was also in the arena of trying to show, to make sure that every individual that comes into the firm becomes richer in his life experience and in living out his life. In that regard we try to implement policies that would be people friendly where people get satisfaction and they get the space. So in that regard, next year we will become something which we've been pushing for a long time, we're going to be able to move to a 5 day week for example, we'll also probably ensure that all staff have the same number of leave days and that this will be regardless of whether they are clerical staff or otherwise. It is to make this place a much more enjoyable place to be and to work in.

Tell me some stories that give me an idea of the hardships in starting a business from scratch.
Well I think when we started out, one was incredibly ignorant of the pitfalls and dangers and blissfully unaware of the pain in the establishment of the business. We started out…I must say, sometimes, when I look back at how we started, I am sometimes surprised at the risks we took. But we were in many ways very fortunate. When you first start out a business you are new, there is going to be a learning curve and sometimes you learn things that are not pleasant. Some times you come across experiences that are not positive, that are painful like disagreements, people not living up to their word and so forth, but more often than not, one perceives it as something to learn from, something positive so that we don't repeat the same mistakes again.

The times where it was difficult was when in the early years, when we were doing projects and so forth, we were so under-manned that, I remember one particular project, all of us literally stayed in the office overnight for one week. Our spouses would visit us in the office! And we literally slept and worked within the office itself. We took short breaks, came back and worked again, just to meet the deadlines. And you know when we were doing it, we were all probably cursing and swearing, and we were all very tired, and someone would describe this as the tough period. But when you look back on them, you would always think of it as the good old days, you know, where you have the energy and the strength and the camaraderie was very strong. The tough times make the people and they tend to make them bond better. It's like forging steel, you go through fire before you become very strong. So while there have been tough times, the tough times were very good in creating strong people and these are the same people I depend on so much for everything we do.

What kind of project was it?
It was a research project, and we had very tough deadlines, it was a do-or-die kind of mission. It was at a time when we were establishing our reputation when people didn't know who or what we were. It was critical not to fail, and everyone knew the significance of the project and what we were doing.

What are some of the things you have had to overcome to succeed?
I think I had to overcome the fact that I had no business background and that was a personal limitation in the sense that there would always be doubts. In a sense one asked if one was fully aware and cognizant of the dangers of what one was doing. That was what I had to overcome, and also one had to overcome an industry that was, or a business environment that was totally unaware of the need for history as I mentioned earlier.

We in a sense created a business or a business need. We tend to pay a lot of money to bring in people from overseas, to pay for consultancy services and so forth. To a large extent, we had to get the local market to appreciate the need for local historical research, to get them to understand and value local consultants. Sometimes you come across the image that if it's going to be good, it's got to come from overseas and that's something that very fortunately we have been able to overcome. But to a certain extent it is still there in the market, and sometimes one feels that one has to constantly prove oneself.

I think by and large, when you are in a business, the other thing I've noticed was that it consumes your life basically. And if you are going into a business, you must accept that, at least in the first few years when you are building your business up: your life is your business and your business is your life. People have to make sacrifices all round. The people who are closest to you tend to be the people who tend to suffer quite a lot because you no longer have the space and time options. The biggest responsibility is the fact that there are people working for you and you always have to ensure that their welfare interest is taken care of, that at the end of the day you must always make sure that you will be able to pay their salaries and they are able to get on with their life.

I don't think many people appreciate how much of a responsibility and emotional burden that is. I have never have been in a situation when I had to tell a staff that I was retrenching them or having to let them go because I can't afford them. I would never want to see that day arrive because I think every time you have to do something like that you kill a part of yourself. For me, one reason I think we took our time growing was because I refused to take on a commitment to take on a person into the office or into the business unless I could be sure that we can take care of them financially once they become a part of the family. It is a very demanding responsibility.

Can you think of any particular good things in the business?
I think for me, there are quite a number of facilitators and office staff that have been with us for a few years. They have grown with the firm, and every time there is a gathering a social function together, there is always a sense of satisfaction that these people are in your life. They are a part of your environment. I think that has been very satisfying, but very important was the fact that when we started the firm the desire was to have an impact on our fellow countrymen. We wanted to wake up people and get them to understand that it is special being a Singaporean and that we have a very unique history.

When we started doing the projects we did, we didn't realize how much of an impact we would have on the rest of the country. By this I mean, the research projects we created, the way we tell our stories in our tours and all that, many of the things we uncovered and brought to schools and so forth have gone on to a wider audience. For example, many of the ideas that we had for our school tours have now gone into history textbooks. The way we describe historical developments have found their way into the way textbooks are written and what kids learn in school today. That's just an example of how we have had an impact. Take for example, our historical project in Labrador. Now we discovered the tunnels in Labrador and we did the first comprehensive historical study on Labrador as a coastal defence position. Today, that has led to a major project in conservation and restoration and the opening up of the park's military history. In due course the tunnels will be opened up, in due course, the guns that were located in other parts of Singapore will be installed on the park, and a real piece of history is now coming to the surface.

And we were one of the few people that pushed for the maintenance of Changi Museum. The prison was expanding, we strongly advocated the maintenance of the Chapel and a museum at a site in Changi itself, and eventually, Singapore Tourism Board (STB) had the vision to pursue that and eventually we were appointed as the managers of Changi museum. We are one of the few enterprises that actually manage a museum. Why did we get involved in the museum? Museums are not exactly money-making ventures, more often than not museums lose money and on top of it, our museum was going to be a free access museum.

But we went in because we were concerned that someone else who might want to go in would treat it purely as a money making venture and not treat the topics, the very painful subjects of the occupation years, the stories of the POWs, the people who were incarcerated in Singapore, like a theme park or some fully commercialized attraction. We wanted to ensure that while it was made a viable business entity, that priority should be given to treating the subject with a degree of sensitivity. This year, we are glad to report that we can actually be able to cover the cost of management of the museum.

Now every time, you meet a POW and we spend time with them and we get their words published in the wider story of what happened in Changi comes to the surface, the satisfaction one gets from doing something like that is overwhelming. The tremendous satisfaction one sees in reaching out to people and getting people to understand the sacrifices that have been made in the past, and the pain and suffering, and desire to never let this happen again. Our role in the museum is that of an educator to the kids, as well as to impart values as well as to ensure that the museum becomes a place for emotional closure for many of the POWs and their families, to wipe away the painful emotional scars they have suffered. And sometimes, the words we receive from the POWs and their families in recognition of what we are doing is so moving that you couldn't ask for a better job.

Who competes with you?
We are in so many different types of businesses, in the sense that we have training programmes, we have consultancy services, we have tours, we have museum management…of course like I've said the common factor that holds them all together is history. So we have different competitors in different arenas of our work. If you talk about our travel agency, then other travel agents compete against us. When we do the school tours, other tour guides compete against us. When we manage Changi Museum, of course we are competing against other tourist attractions, and the goal is to draw as many tourists and as many people as possible to the Museum.

While the competitive element is always there, we will never disappear because we are motivated by more than money. The financial element is critical in maintaining viability. Our trick is to do so and to maintain an enjoyment and sensitivity to the subject which we are dealing with and at the same time ensure that we are financially solvent, and we remain competitive to remain in existence. And the idea is not just to remain in existence, but our aim is to replicate ourselves and go regional when the time allows it.

Have you ever thought of going in business with competitors to make a bigger business?
I've always believed in the benefits of bringing synergistic forces together. And we work with quite a few government sector agencies and so forth and the problem is that we still have not been able to see trust as being as common as we would like it to be in the industry. I think we are still relatively young, and while we do want to work with partners and so forth, if it is within the same arena of business, we will take some time before I think someone can earn the trust that we need of them. So to be very frank and honest, I've always been very supportive of synergistic activities, and we've always been the first to try and make it work, we've always been very open with our information in the past, and even assisted our competitors in the hope that they see the benefits of synergistic work. But the results have not been promising so far and we are a bit cautious about that and until we find a formula where we can be synergistic where the interests of both parties can be sufficiently protected, I think we will remain a little bit more cautious about that arena.

How does your business work? As in, how do you make money?
In the sense that for tours, there are outright fees, and all you do is make sure your income is above your costs. For research consultancy work, we have to make sure that the time we spend on the project and the amount of effort expended on the project is always more than covered by the income revenue we expect to get. We don't work by commissions because we are not a trading company. But having said that, where the museum is concerned for example, while it remains a free access museum, we create many other revenue streams to make it viable. For example, we have a restaurant on site, we have a gift shop, we conduct tours and all this adds to the revenue stream which will cover your cost and we hope in due course maybe even help us acquire the profit to help us do the things we want to do.

What qualities that you have do you think differentiates you from someone who works for others?
I don't think it's just special to me, I think it's common out there in most entrepreneurs. One, I think is the belief in oneself, that one has something to contribute, that it's possible to do things, that we don't have to wait for someone else. I think the belief in oneself is very important. I mean the self esteem, I wouldn't call it guts, but you just go there and do something and not be…I remember this, a lot of people get held back by fear and I think when we started out we didn't think it was anything to be afraid of. There is no harm in trying and, it is better to try and fail rather than not try at all. I know it's a cliché, but the belief in oneself to try is strong. Fear I think holds back a lot of people.

When I was in the Officer's Mess at the SCSC, we played a very simple mess game, after the mess dining-in. There was this game where a whole series of chairs was put in front of you and you were all blindfolded, and told to reach the other end, the end-line of which was behind the chairs. Once we had been blindfolded, many of the chairs were removed. Those blindfolded thought they had a whole series of chairs in front of them and many of them walked tentatively. While some of us were just willing to dash ahead, and if you get stopped by a chair, you get stopped by a chair, you might get a few scratches here and there, at the worst you might break your leg. Those who thought the chairs were there took a long time, while some of us just moved on until we got hit. I realize that it was a very important game because it explained something too. A lot of us do not have access to information, so we are blind and we always think that there's a whole series of obstacles in front of us. My point is, move forward, and when you meet an obstacle, then deal with it, but don't let the fear of the obstacles in front of you stop you from starting. I think that's very important, to just get started and see how it goes.

Through the whole course of this interview, I think I can piece together the whole story, you started out with a vision and a passion, has that changed over the course of the years?
The vision and passion has been there though there have been times when you do get depressed, when you do sometimes wonder if this is what I want to do, but these are momentarily occasions because when you do anything that is worthwhile, it is never easy. And when it is very easy, usually, it is never worthwhile!

As we became a much more visible player in the Singapore market, I also found that we got into conflict with a lot of people, people with different ideas. Contention is part and parcel of business. I for one, have always disliked contention. I would just like to get on with the job instead of getting into arguments and disputes and so on. But life is a case of negotiating, resolving problems and moving on and believing in people around you.

There are occasions when you want to get something on, there will be conflict, there will be arguments, they are part and parcel of life. There are occasions when you are involved in something like that, that you do get sometimes depressed, but on the whole, it is because of the vision and passion of so many in the firm that allows you to overcome these moments.

Because if you were not driven by that vision, then when you first meet that first major block, that first major confrontation or problem, it will be so much easier to give up. Because if it was only money, it would be so much easier to give up. I personally believe that there's only so much money that a person needs to have, after that what more do you do with it? It's just much more of the same. I remember when I was in HK, I was with some other professional colleagues, and they did nothing but shopping. They asked me how come I was not buying anything? HK is such a wonderful city for shopping. I said, I've got a car, I've got a house, I've got a lovely wife, I've got enough clothes, what more is there to do? That's it! I don't need anything else. So anything beyond that is just more of the same, so I can't see myself being motivated by it because it is just more of the same thing. All a person needs is a good roof over his head and the ability to lead a comfortable life. I've got that. But being able to do something important, now that can be a very strong driving force and that will remain with you whether you get significant financial remuneration or not and I think for most of us in the firm, we are motivated by that desire and so in that sense, if you are motivated by money, this is not the company for you, it is a desire to do something significant, in leaving something behind that's worthwhile. So that takes us across all the difficult times, depression that we face, so I would agree that yes, it is that passion and vision that enables us to overcome most of the obstacles we face.

When you started out, did you have a vision to educate Singaporeans of their history, was it something concrete or did it change to become what it is today?
There was a desire to share the love of history because there was so much satisfaction gained from it. Everything you know really ties up with history, when you have an awareness of your own history and heritage, it makes you a better person, it gives you self-esteem. It also gives you knowledge, it gives you an understanding of people and an ability to work with them, it makes you a better human being. It allows the various communities to work better with each other because they form a sense of enlightenment, because history creates awareness.

For me, I always felt that I have become a better person because of my appreciation and understanding of history. And that was something which I wanted to share with people, how so much more richer life is when history is shared, when people have an understanding of their own history. That was the broad stimulant in us wanting to set up the company and to see that in our own kids too. It plays a very critical role in our society. For example, we included the elaboration of eclectic architecture in our trails in order to teach our young the importance of it in our history and tradition. I believe that once you impart that knowledge to the young, they will eventually understand and finally appreciate and be willing to protect their heritage when they grow up into the next generation of Singapore.

When was the moment you realized that the business would work and support you?
Our first year was a year of experimentation, I think it was in the second year that we saw that we were able to cover cost and it gave us the confidence that it was getting somewhere, and we have never questioned it since then. So it was in our second year that we saw ourselves making sufficient revenue to cover costs.

What would you advise young people to do today in starting a business?
I would advice that they must first have that dream and that their dream would be their most important asset and they must enjoy what they are doing if they are going to make it work. This is important whether you are an employee working for someone or you are running a business. It is even more critical in business because you will face all kinds of challenges when you run a business, and if you are not fired by a dream to make it work to take whatever sacrifices that are necessary, and you would have to make those sacrifices, financial or otherwise, if you don't have a strong dream it's not going to happen.

What if you only have a dream but no money? Would you see yourself going back to work in the private sector?
I think it will be a very sad day when that happens, I would always be able to work for someone, it's not a problem. I think I have been given the fundamental skills to always be able to make myself be relevant in one way or the other.

But it's my belief that something does not work, it's not because it will never work, but it's because something right is not being done. So if it does not work the first time round, my advice is to go back to it and see how it can work the second time round. Failure is the norm in life and you need to be prepared to meet failure. So the idea is to always go back and try again. Say the worst happens and the whole dream comes crashing down, I would then try to see if I can make it try to work some other way. If you have a dream, you know what is the option, the other option is to do something in your life you won't enjoy at all, now that's a lousy option and I'ld rather have the options of trying to have it work some other way then be forced into something I don't like doing.

I'm not saying that working for someone else is something you should not enjoy doing, I mean that is fine. If I eventually want to retire and work for someone else, perhaps in a museum or something, I won't mind as long as it gives me satisfaction. But if my dream is to achieve a lot more then, I should find a way to make it otherwise I might not be suitably happy doing anything else. And until you have come to the point where you have tried everything and realize that this definitely cannot work, then give it up. And you know when you keep telling yourself this cannot work and you want to give up, that means your dream is not strong enough, go and find yourself a new dream.

Do it think it's a very sad dream if young people only dream simply about making lots of money? Should there be substance in what they dream as well?
I think if you are motivated by money, that's fine. The question is what you do after you see the money and when you see money as the primary objective, very often people lose sight, more often than not when these people become somebody, they are usually people went in for reasons beyond the money. I don't think I have ever seen anyone successful who was purely interested in making money, it could be the lifestyle of being an entrepreneur, or the ability to enjoy the independence of existence or the kind of work they were doing, for example they enjoy running a pub and want to make it into a successful business, for example Europa, with Dennis Foo.

They all had some other passion. The people whose end object is money I feel, always end up the small time businessman because their desire for money sometimes is so overwhelming that they lose the finer aspects of being a person and what is business but getting on with people? Getting them to believe what you are able to do for them. Maybe I'm clouded by my own views on life, but I've never come across someone who was purely interested in money making it big.

Do you have a role model or mentor?
I don't really have a role model, but there was something on a TV programme recently that caught my attention, it was the CEO of Infosys, it is the largest company after Microsoft in the software industry. It's an Indian based company. I can't even remember the name of the CEO. But I caught him as he was giving a talk. There was a certain degree of calm about him, and I remember one of his employees who was interviewed saying that he created a wonderful work environment and he also came up with a saying "speed of imagination and excellence in implementation" as being a bye-word. It was not just what was said, but it was the image of this man being able to project a sense of contentment and his motivations were similar. He wanted to establish a wonderful work environment, create security for the people, uplift people from poverty and create a very disciplined work environment with people focused on the satisfaction of creating something of quality. Now it was kind of obvious that the starting motivation was not financial and while that was not their primary motive, they are still the world's second largest software company, and they own billions. I think that for me is a wonderful example of what a businessman should be like, having a social imperative to a business focus.

What do you do about retirement funds, or plans?
The very fact that we didn't plan on having a family more than clearly brings to mind that one has to take care of one's future needs. And even if one had kids, planning is a crucial part of life, because what one sees of present practices is that more often than not, parents are often left on their own.

So for me, it is a case of making necessary savings and prudent investments to ensure that our basic needs are taken care of in the final years of existence, but to do it in a manner to allow one to maintain the quality of life which one is used to. Just because you are growing old does not mean that you have to be living more frugally. So a lot of it is in savings and investments. In a sense, the firm that I have developed, I would say that it is a factor that I would trust upon for the future also. In a sense that I would always be a part of the firm in more ways, so your work, as an entrepreneur, if I may be allowed to say that should be a significant part of your life's investment for the future.

As we try and pick the final 38 entrepreneurs from all the people we interview what qualities would you think a person should have to inspire others?
Well, I think they should be knowledgeable, dynamic, hardworking, always considerate of people around them and never take advantage of them in a negative way, they should be builders and creators. For example, in company takeovers, you can grow rich by destroying. I suppose these people can be entrepreneurs as well, but in my books, being an entrepreneur you should be able to contribute something to society and that is a critical component of being an entrepreneur and not destroy things. For example, you could denude the rainforests of all the beautiful trees and make a lot of money, but I think you will be doing something destructive to society. So you can make a lot of money and be an entrepreneur that way, and you can even do it legally if you want, but I think that is making money without considering the social impact that you make.

If you are chosen as one of the 38 winners will you come to the ceremony to be honored?
Yes.

Will you be comfortable with the press and TV asking you many of the same questions if you are a winner?
Very comfortable, because I deal with the press all the time.

Do you have any objection to this interview being posted on the Community Web Site or published in the newspaper prior to being chosen?
No.

If part of the Spirit of Enterprise is a scholarship given in your name directed to any school you would like to give it to: any idea now where that would be? You don't have to decide now, but if some day you are asked - any ideas? Primary school, secondary, college, technical or university?
I probably like it to be for one of the ITE centers because very simply I want to register a point that you don't have to be enormously educated to be an entrepreneur. I think there is a lot of potential in the ITEs and I would love to see someone use that award and blaze a trail for the other students in the ITE.

What are your hopes for the future?
Well, we plan to become a group in due course, a corporate group and eventually become listed. While that is the objective, the ultimate objective is to see the work of the firm grow beyond individuals, that the aim and objective and philosophy of the company is able to go beyond the transient. While people can come and go, creating a corporate structure allows for a continuation of the work and the objectives, and that it is an institutional philosophy as it grows and continues it's existence.

Do you have a suggestion for someone else we ought to interview who you think has an interesting story to tell?
I think Bernard Harrison is one, he's left as CEO of the Zoo and gone on his own. It's a very hard thing to do to give up a high profile, high paying job and I think it would be interesting to find out why he did that.

I am not sure whether he's in town, but the chap who set up Media Masters, Ian Ward, which is a publishing firm, he used to be a war correspondent who's now set up roots in Singapore, I think he has an interesting story to tell.

Lastly, Sharon Siddique, she used to be the Deputy Head of Institute of SEA Studies, and she has gone into her own private consultancy business now.

Student Interviewer's Personal Comment